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The Surge: Sadr Calls For Attacks On US Troops

This is not the idea behind the Surge I think:

The renegade cleric Muqtada al-Sadr urged the Iraqi army and police to stop cooperating with the United States and told his guerrilla fighters to concentrate on pushing American forces out of the country, according to a statement issued Sunday. The statement, stamped with al-Sadr's official seal, was distributed in the Shiite holy city of Najaf on Sunday — a day before a large demonstration there, called for by al-Sadr, to mark the fourth anniversary of the fall of Baghdad. "You, the Iraqi army and police forces, don't walk alongside the occupiers, because they are your archenemy," the statement said. Its authenticity could not be verified.

The "good" news continues:

The U.S. military on Sunday announced the deaths of four American soldiers, killed a day earlier in an explosion near their vehicle in Diyala province northeast of Baghdad. The province has seen a spike in attacks on U.S. and Iraqi forces since the start of a plan two months ago to pacify the capital. Officials believe militants have streamed out of Baghdad to invigorate the insurgency in areas just outside the city. Separately, a pickup truck loaded with artillery shells exploded Sunday near a hospital south of Baghdad, killing at least 15 people. The blast left a crater 10 yards wide, the Iraqi military said.

How long must this charade continue?

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    I had to come here to calm down. (5.00 / 3) (#1)
    by dkmich on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 10:47:35 AM EST
    When the Iraq war saner than dkos, the whole freaking internet is in trouble.  Sure miss the hell out of you.

    Exactly! (1.00 / 1) (#9)
    by annefrank on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 11:56:20 AM EST
    by now, Armando would have diaried Bush appointing Kerik to head Homeland Security KNOWING he had ties to the mob. One criminal appointing another...

    Parent
    That thread was something (none / 0) (#68)
    by Alien Abductee on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:50:00 AM EST
    I haven't been looking at comments there much lately, so skimming that thread was a bit of a shock, but only in a bad way if you're wanting to hold on to what dkos was. It's something different from what it was two years or even six months ago, that's for sure. I think it's a sign that Dems have successfully grabbed the mythical center, which BTD jokes about being at but obviously isn't. Those people literally don't know left from right - they're the great nonideological center that governing majorities have to be built from. The ideological pressure now has to come from farther out. What's happening there shouldn't be fought or cursed, IMO, even if it means no longer being able to discuss things without getting piled on by people you would have thought of as wingers not so long ago. It's better that they're there and not at redstate or LGF, no?

    But the more people who can start their own sites now the better, especially if they cross-post as much as they can, trying as best they can not to get stomped as "purity trolls".

    Re the Surge: it's "working" if it keeps Bush able to strut around as a War President and hide his party's attempt to take over the machinery of government for its own self-perpetuation. That's all the whole Debacle was ever for, I fully believe.

    Parent

    We won the war, (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by fiver on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 10:54:39 AM EST
    now end the occupation!

    Am I such an extreme leftist that this couldn't become a standard Dem talking point??

    poll (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 11:17:09 AM EST
    fiver-Your poll on the other thread was from '04. Not counting the kurds the numberof Iraqis who want the US out is  likely more than 90%.  

    *A 51% majority, including one-third of Shiites and 94% of Sunni Arabs, say attacks on U.S. forces are acceptable political acts. Only 7% of Kurds agree.

    *In all, 83% of Shiites and 97% of Sunni Arabs oppose the presence of coalition forces in Iraq; 75% of Kurds support them. By more than 3 to 1, Iraqis say the presence of U.S. forces is making the security situation worse.

    link

    Parent

    if you read down one paragraph more... (none / 0) (#6)
    by fiver on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 11:48:10 AM EST
    you'll see this:
    Even so, only 35% of Iraqis want U.S. forces to leave immediately. Two-thirds say they should remain until security is restored, the Iraqi government is stronger or Iraqi security forces are better able to operate independently.


    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 12:03:12 PM EST
    I read the whole thing but the 2/3 figure is including the Kurds, and if you take into account that the majority of the country are Shiites than the amount is over 90%. And again, as I said in the other thread, I find it hard to believe that the poll could be accurate, considering journalists are not even reporting outside of the green zone as it is way too dangerous.

    If you believe that 2/3 of the Iraqis want us to stay then you also must believe that we are winning in Iraq.

    I don't believe that for a second.

    Parent

    I think the polling questions (none / 0) (#15)
    by fiver on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 12:55:31 PM EST
    are confusing.  "Opposing forces" versus wanting "immediate withdrawal" could be interpreted as different things.

    I agree that 35% seems way too optimistic, but I also think 90% want us gone tomorrow seems pessimistic...but wtf do we know?

    Parent

    but wtf do we know? (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 01:01:40 PM EST
    Not much except that this admin is not credible. And a lot of Americans are dying for no good reason. Not to mention all the Iraqi blood that is on our hands.

    It seems logical to assume everyone will be better off if we bring our boys and girls back home.

    Parent

    I know there's one thing Iraqis do like.. (none / 0) (#63)
    by fiver on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 10:01:42 PM EST
    our money.

    Very intersting column at WSJ on that:

    The tribes openly acknowledge that it has been the personal behavior, strength of arms and persistence of the American forces that convinced them to join the fight. "The American coalition is the only thing," Sheik Abureeshah of Ramadi said, "that makes the Iraqi government give anything to Anbar."

    The tribes want their share of oil revenues, more power and a cut of the American contracts.



    Parent
    Sunni (none / 0) (#71)
    by squeaky on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 06:17:10 AM EST
    I don't know how you can take the WSJ opinion page seriously. They have reduced Iraq to a simple story of cowboys and indians. Truly a Bush perspective, I believe that Bing West is making a Hollywood version of this article.

    Not information I would trust, even if there is a grain of truth in it.  

    Parent

    Eight out of ten Shias in Baghdad... (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 12:58:47 PM EST
    ...(80%) say they want foreign forces to leave within a year (72% of Shias in the rest of the country), according to a poll conducted by World Public Opinion in September. None of the Shias polled in Baghdad want U.S.-led troops to be reduced only "as the security situation improves," a sharp decline from January, when 57 percent of the Shias polled by WPO in the capital city preferred an open-ended U.S presence.

    This brings Baghdad Shias in line with the rest of the country. Seven out of ten Iraqis overall--including both the Shia majority (74%) and the Sunni minority (91%)--say they want the United States to leave within a year.
    ...
    "What's most troubling is that the United States is not only seen in a negative light but as an enemy," ... "When asked to name the two countries that pose the greatest threat, the vast majority, about 80 percent, name the United States and Israel."
    --- The WPO Poll was taken in September 2006. The situation has only deteriorated since.

    Parent
    see above comments (n/t) (none / 0) (#64)
    by fiver on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 10:02:32 PM EST
    When did the terrorist surrender? (none / 0) (#26)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 02:40:59 PM EST
    Did I miss that?

    Parent
    the Iraqi people (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by fiver on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 09:57:28 PM EST
    don't want Al-Qaeda there anymore than we do.  Once we leave, we'll take away Al-Qaeda's only legitimate message that we're there to occupy their land and take their oil, I think Al-Qaeda will be non-existant in Iraq, just as it was before our presence...

    just my opinion.

    Also, and I know this is a minority opinion, but if this is truly a "war" it has to be the most skewed war in history where we inflict tens of thousands of deaths at the push of the button with state of the art technology versus poorly armed militias...not that I'm saying the 3,000+ American deaths aren't tragic and entirely preventable.

    Parent

    This appears to be a major policy change (5.00 / 4) (#3)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 11:04:55 AM EST
    from al-Sadr:
    stop cooperating with the United States and ... concentrate on pushing American forces out of the country
    Last summer, July 2006, al-Sadr's office issued a 10 point policy directive to all the offices and branches of the Badr Organization.

    Up to now al-Sadr has been showing some restraint from open battle with US Troops.

    Point 1 of that letter was:
    1 - There is a need to exercise restraint and patience and calm in the face of the full military and political escalation of the Anglo-American occupation forces and not respond to them, so that the enemies will not be able to transfer of the battle to their areas, drain our energies
    Now he has "told his guerrilla fighters to concentrate on pushing American forces out of the country"?

    Point 10 of the directive last summer was:
    10- In the case of starting the battle, all Shiites, followers of Imam Ali (peace be upon him), as well as employees of the Ministry of Defense and Interior Ministry to join "Badr Brigade" forces, the Mahdi Army and the Al-Dawa Party, stealing arms and ammunition, machinery and equipment to increase the battle.
    How long must this charade continue? I think the charade part is over, and we may be about to see the death count of US Troops increase dramatically.

    To me it looks like the sh*t is about to hit the fan, bigtime. I suspect we "ain't seen nuthin', yet."

    It won't be pretty (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by TexDem on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 11:54:57 AM EST
    The hubris of this admin is disgusting. The Bush cabal will probably try to spin this as further proof that the "surge" is working.

    Parent
    The "surge" may be working... (none / 0) (#14)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 12:25:02 PM EST
    ...perfectly according to plan. Bush may have no problem now manufacturing another pack of lies to spoon feed the peasants with and use them as justification to attack Iran out of this mess now, and turn it from a Debacle to a Cataclysm...
    The Badr Organization was the armed wing of the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI). Headed by Hadi Al-Amiri it participated in the 2005 Iraqi election as part of the United Iraqi Alliance coalition. Its members have entered the new Iraqi army and police force... Originally the Badr Brigade, it grew to a division and then a corps. The Badr Brigade was formed by the Iranian government to fight Saddam Hussein's Baathist regime in Iraq. Its members were drawn from pro-Iranian Iraqi Shia political and religious dissidents. The Badr forces fought alongside Iran in the Iran-Iraq War (1980-1988). Before 2003, it was based in Iran for two decades during the rule of Saddam Hussein.
    --- Wikipedia

    Parent
    RE: the fan.... (none / 0) (#73)
    by Edger on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:06:10 PM EST
    Shia leader calls for more attacks on US troops as car bomb kills 17
    The Independent, 09 April 2007
    Thousands of Shia protesters converged on the Iraqi city of Najaf last night for an anti-US rally on the fourth anniversary of the fall of Baghdad. The Shia cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, in a statement distributed in the city, urged Iraqi police and army to stop co-operating with the US, and urged his militia to step up attacks and force the US to withdraw. In the latest violence, a car bomb killed 17 people and wounded two dozen in Mahmudiya, 20 miles south of Baghdad, the latest in a spate of attacks outside the Iraqi capital since a US military "surge" spearheaded a new security plan there.

    Fearing more car-bombings timed to coincide with the anniversary, authorities in Baghdad and in Najaf announced a 24-hour ban on vehicles in both cities. "No, no, no to America. Muqtada, yes, yes, yes," the protesters chanted as they streamed towards Najaf.

    Iraq will be the focus of the American presidential campaign this week when Senator John McCain, once considered an all-but certainty to become the Republicans' 2008 presidential candidate, seeks to re-launch his campaign with a high risk strategy - claiming the US can achieve a military victory. Mr McCain will further link his name to the increasingly unpopular war in Iraq by insisting that progress is being made and that a failure there would be "catastrophic" for the US.
    Catastrophic? I guess McCain hasn't bothered reading the news for a few years. Because he knows the "surge" is working, of course.

    Of course.

    Parent
    Levin says Reid's support of Feingold bill (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by annefrank on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 11:37:20 AM EST
    was personal, not per the caucus, and the troops WILL be funded. Dems have offered to extract the exit wording, but keep benchmarks. Repubs oppose. It's basically a Dem strip tease - and another blank check!

    http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=3020270

    Levin so pisses me off. (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by dkmich on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 12:08:47 PM EST
    He also wouldn't support Lamont because traitor Joe was "his friend".  Come to think of it, Stabenow doesn't make me too happy either.  Howard Dean and Feingold.  That is what the party needs.

    Parent
    So, Obama wasn't going off the (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by mentaldebris on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 01:19:14 PM EST
    rails with his unfortunate recent remarks. I figured as much. Levin's chatter seems to be the confirmation that the Dems apparently have a plan -- stay the course, but dress it up it with the illusion they are actually trying to end our involvement in the Iraqi civil war.

    Same old story, same old song and dance. Spines made of sugar, crumbling at the slightest GOP talking point. Disappointing, but not surprising.

    Unless Levin and Obama are bucking the rest of the party...

    Heh.

    Parent

    Levin is the emobiment... (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Dadler on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 01:30:16 PM EST
    ...of the utter lack of imagination and courage plauging the Democratic Party.  

    Parent
    The Dems (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by Che's Lounge on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 03:09:07 PM EST
    aren't going to make us leave, Jim. That's the whole point.
    Nevertheless, a quick search shows that attacks on the pipelines are steady if not up. the strategy now IMO is to get things quieted down enough to secure the pipelines. This will be resolved through a combination of financial deals to begin extraction, combined with military operations to quell the sectarian violence. Military KIA levels are completely acceptable to the war planners right now. The civilian losses are a concern. I think the biggest problem for Bush right now is, where can he get more troops? If Sadr's militia's are organized, then as Edger states, things could get much worse. We are three months since the surge was announced and nothing has changed one bit. How long are we supposed to wait this time?

    Give war a chance, he says. (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 04:07:49 PM EST
    It should be over in thirty, forty, maybe fifty or sixty years. Maybe. But not the way the ppj's of the world (don't) think.

    Just keep killing anyone who has any ideas. Sure....

    Saudi Arabia as a superpower?
    Truth be said, in this modern age of post cold war geopolitics, Saudi Arabia may well emerge as the next political superpower. At least where the Middle East is concerned.

    So how does a country like Saudi Arabia, without the super aircraft carriers and the mighty armadas that accompany such hardware, without nuclear weapons, without a sizable army able to deploy anywhere on this planet and beyond expect to reach the status of superpower?

    In Saudi Arabia's case it basically comes down to clout - and financial power. How strongly can the kingdom influence the rest of the region, the rest of the Arab and Islamic worlds? How can King Abdullah manage to convince 21 other Arab states and a handful of Islamic countries to adopt its idea for a peaceful solution to the many crises tearing the region apart?

    If that clout can replace smart bombs, superior airpower, stronger, better trained and better equipped armies, then the battle is partially won.

    Using his influence King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia has managed to pull the Middle East peace talks further along than a multitude of past and present diplomats. These are still early days but Abdullah is clearly thinking ahead and did not limit the Arab summit to Arab leaders. Rather, the Saudi king has invited several "neighbours" - Turkey, Iran and Pakistan - to join the Riyadh summit.


    Parent
    Flexing Their Muscles (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 06:06:44 PM EST
    Calling the U.S. occupation of Iraq 'illegitimate' was just the latest volley in Saudi Arabia's war of independence from Washington.

    A conversation with the Saudi foreign minister:
    March 29, 2007 - When Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah opened the Arab Summit in Riyadh this week, speaking about Iraq as a land where "blood flows between brothers in the shadow of an illegitimate foreign occupation and hateful sectarianism," he offended many policymakers in Washington. But the statement was only one signal among many that, in the face of explosive conflicts that the Bush administration has caused or failed to contain, the king is out to assert Saudi Arabia's role as an independent leader in the region. The goals--to stabilize Iraq, build an Arab-Israeli peace and contain the growing influence of Iran--are the same as Washington's. But the means to those ends are very different.
    King Abdullah and Saudi Arabia and Iraq and Iran and the rest of the Middle East and the world have had just about as much of george bush and dick cheney and their mentally challenged supporters as they can take, or will take.

    And now that the US military is so badly overextended and underequipped and undermotivated by bush's idiocy the king and the kingdom are moving in.

    The Burning Bush

    It's called a "Debacle" for more than one reason.

    Parent
    Also (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 06:18:41 PM EST
    They have just been involved in a peace negotiotions.
    In the meantime Saudi Arabia is pursuing a different path. In a February summit in Mecca between Mahmoud Abbas and Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal, the Saudi government worked out an agreement between Hamas and Fatah, which have been clashing violently, to form a national unity government. According to the Mecca accord, Hamas has agreed "to respect international resolutions and the agreements [with Israel] signed by the Palestinian Liberation Organization," including the Oslo Accords...

    -snip-

    .....The Saudi government views this accord as the prelude to the offer of a peace settlement with Israel, along the lines of the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative, a settlement to be guaranteed by Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries, based on the 1967 borders and full recognition of Israel. The offer was meant to be elaborated by Saudi King Abdullah at the Arab League meeting to be hosted by Saudi Arabia at the end of March. But no progress is possible as long as the Bush administration and the Ehud Olmert government persist in their current position of refusing to recognize a unity government that includes Hamas. The recent meeting between Condoleezza Rice, Abbas, and Olmert turned into an empty formality.

    worth a read

    Parent

    Oh yeah... (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 06:26:16 PM EST
    The King is royally pissed off and he's intent on going the whole nine yards to unify the Middle East politically. And it won't be as lapdogs.

    George Bush's legacy is the last thing concerning him.

    Parent
    Horse hockey (1.00 / 1) (#41)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 05:30:48 PM EST
    If the US removes its protective grace from SA it is exactly one pissed off Irarian from being chattel of Iran.

    Parent
    Like the way US "protective grace"... (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 05:36:09 PM EST
    ...has kept Iraq out of Iran's influence, you mean?

    Sure.

    Parent
    hmmmmmmmmmmm (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by cpinva on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 04:24:23 PM EST
    Give war a chance

    i believe we already did that jim, it doesn't seem to be working out as intended. funny thing about wars, they rarely go as planned, especially if the planning is as poor as it was for this one.

    frankly, this guy (sadr), and his minions, should have been offed the first time they reared their annoying heads. unfortunately, we didn't have enough firepower available to do the job. again, thanks to that rigorous planning.

    the "surge" is still several hundred thousand troops short of what's necessary to completely control the country, so it isn't going to happen now either. all that's happened is that we've incrementally increased the # of targets for these guys.

    I understand where you are coming from.... (1.00 / 2) (#43)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 05:39:18 PM EST
    Actually, the Left, and that includes you, has opposed the war from the beginning because it is a strategy of Bush. So your vested interest is in being right. To be right, the war must be shown as wrong. To do that, we must lose.

    Perhaps if the country had been united Bush would have moved more quickly to add troops, as you claim we need, and al-Sadr would not be cheered by the words of our Demo politicans and various people who the media regard as demi-gods despite their lack of education, experience in the real world and knowledge.

    The Left's and their handmaidens, the MSM motivations and opinions are as transparent as a pane of glass.

    Parent

    Bu$h had a strategy? (5.00 / 3) (#54)
    by walt on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 08:03:59 PM EST
    Now that's quite a stretch.  Bu$hInc made all manner of descriptive claims about the results of invading & conquering Iraq.

    None of them have been borne out.  The Iraq debacle continues to be & become the grandest military failure in history.

    Many commenters have clearly stated what the probable results of the Bu$h xliii utter lack of any strategy or tactics would turn out to be.  The comments have all been true & widely reported.

    And this is not a matter of political left or right.  There are several conservative, Republican generals, admirals, military historians & competent foreign relations experts who have accurately predicted the on-going failures of the Bu$hInc neocon stupidity.  It doesn't matter what Bu$h xliii attempts to do now: it will not work.  George W. Bush is deluded & believes things are taking place that have not occurred & never will.

    George Carlin described this years ago: "vuja de," stuff that ain't never gonna happen.

    Parent

    Question (1.00 / 1) (#58)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 09:14:55 PM EST
    Do you understand the difference between having a strategy and results? (Claimed or otherwise.)

    Do you understand that "strategy" and "tactics" are totally different things?

    Do you understand that 99.9% of the people criticizing "strategy" and "tactics" do not know the difference, and if they did still wouldn't be able to evaluate which was good and/or bad in advance of either or both's application?

    And if you want to make the "the ex-general said" claim, let's see a name, the comment in context and a short bio of the man.

    Can you do that??

    Parent

    I've got 5 here. (5.00 / 2) (#69)
    by walt on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 04:19:01 AM EST
    This commentary is by Joe Galloway.  You can go to a video store & rent We Were Soldiers, & learn a little bit about Mr. Galloway.

    Here's the information.
    5 ex-generals show some spine, say Rumsfeld must go
    By JOSEPH L. GALLOWAY
    Knight Ridder Newspapers
    WASHINGTON - Five retired generals have broken cover and silence in recent days and called publicly for President Bush to fire his Defense Secretary, Donald H. Rumsfeld. Way past time for the officer corps to speak up, I say.

    Marine Gen. Anthony Zinni was the four-star commander of U.S. Central Command just before 9/11 and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. He has long experience in the Middle East, and President Bush used him as his negotiator in the Israel-Palestinian standoff.

    Besides urging the firing of Rumsfeld, Zinni suggested that there was also something wrong with military leaders unwilling to risk their careers by speaking up against disastrous ideas that come down from their civilian bosses.

    Currently serving officers have only to recall what befell the Army chief of staff, Gen. Eric K. Shinseki, when he first opposed Rumsfeld's plan to cut Army strength by two more divisions, and the Army National Guard by four divisions, in August 2001, and then in February 2003 told a senator at a hearing that he thought it would require "several hundred thousand" American troops to successfully occupy and pacify Iraq.

    It was the truth and it came from a standard formula that was not of Shinseki's making. But that estimate ran counter to Rumsfeld's idea, and Shinseki became an "un-person" in the Pentagon. He may have been chief of the Army, but Rumsfeld and others disparaged his estimate as wildly off the mark, and Pentagon officials leaked to the press that the vice chief would be his replacement, even though Shinseki still had 18 months on his tour as chief of staff before he would retire.

    Everyone who wore stars got the message. Don't open your mouth around Rumsfeld except to say "Yes, sir!"

    The chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Marine Gen. Peter Pace, was quick to defend Rumsfeld at a Department of Defense news briefing. When a reporter asked Rumsfeld if, in a month when several generals had called for his head, he wasn't hurting the war effort by hanging onto his job, Pace responded before Rumsfeld could: "As far as Peter Pace is concerned, this country is exceptionally well served by (Rumsfeld). Nobody, Nobody works harder than he does to take care of the PFCs and lance corporals and lieutenants and captains."

    One of the generals calling for Rumsfeld's departure, retired Marine Lt. Gen. Greg Newbold, who was the Joint Staff operations chief leading up to Iraq, wrote this week that Rumsfeld needed to be dismissed for his grotesque mismanagement of the Iraq war. But he had some self-criticism that surely applies to fellow generals and admirals still sitting in E-Ring offices of the Pentagon:

    "I now regret that I did not more openly challenge those who were determined to invade a country whose actions were peripheral to the real threat - al Qaida," Newbold wrote in Time Magazine.

    The third to speak up was Army Maj. Gen. Paul Eaton, a recent retiree who little more than a year ago was in charge of training officers and soldiers for the Iraqi Army. Eaton suggested that President Bush accept the resignation that Rumsfeld says he has tendered before. Eaton said Rumsfeld is incompetent and chiefly responsible for the difficulties now facing the U. S. mission in Iraq.

    The fourth was Maj. Gen. John Batiste, who turned down a promotion to three stars and an assignment as the second in command in Iraq last November and took retirement.

    Batiste told an interviewer on CNN that he believed that the Bush administration's handling of the Iraq War violated fundamental military principles including unity of command and unity of effort.

    By failing to provide enough troops for the effort, Batiste said, Rumsfeld and others in the civilian chain of command had helped create the Abu Ghraib prison abuse scandal by placing too much responsibility on the shoulders of incompetent officers and untrained troops.

    A fifth, retired Army Major Gen. John Riggs, spoke up in favor of Rumsfeld resigning on Thursday said in an interview on National Public Radio.
    [my bold emphases of names]

    Now, then, take the names in my bold typeface & look them up on Google.  That way you might accidentally learn something.

    Strategy & tactics are not totally different things.  Tactics implement strategy.  And you don't know anything about either of them, based on the insipid, foolish question.

    The grand strategy of invading Iraq was a stupid mistake, clearly identified by scores of experts months in advance of the actual implementation.  Bu$hInc presented a large group of "claims" that specific positive results would develop from the invasion.

    None of them did.  It was & is a failure.  It is a thoroughly documented, asinine disaster: as in "Mission nowhere near Accomplished."  Most media now use the term "debacle" when making generalizations about the invasion of Iraq.

    The failings were described in advance by well known strategic planners.  Every predicted failing occurred.  Bu$h xliii, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Feith, Perls, the Kagans, etc., have all been repeatedly shown to have false, stupid, incorrect opinions about the strategy.  Their amalgamated insane decisions will be the heart & soul of military lessons about insufferable meglomania for decades.  There will be required courses at West Point & Annapolis about how to avoid the ridiculous mistakes of the war in Iraq.

    And now the vacuous stupidity of the escalation, renamed "surge" by the putzers, is being displayed in vainglorious failure by all of the world's media.  Pffffft!  Failure.

    Parent

    Disagree (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 04:33:43 PM EST
    frankly, this guy (sadr), and his minions, should have been offed the first time they reared their annoying heads.

    His father was martyed by Sadaam, had we martyred him, as you suggest there would be terror  in the USA for years and years to come.

    Not a good idea.

    Probably, yes. (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 04:38:23 PM EST
    Squaky (1.00 / 1) (#44)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 05:42:39 PM EST
    Then you say we should yield to the threat of terror.

    What are you willing to give up for peace in your time, Neville?


    Parent

    Yes (5.00 / 2) (#45)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 05:59:58 PM EST
    Yeilding is often a good idea. If you think al-Sadr is a terrorist then  you have some studying to do.

    BTW- If our country was invaded by a large army, would you be calling to fight Americans who have different political ideals than you or would you call to fight the invading enemy that wants to force its values down your throat?

    I thought so.

    Parent

    squeaky said (1.00 / 1) (#59)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 09:20:07 PM EST
    His father was martyed by Sadaam, had we martyred him, as you suggest there would be terror  in the USA for years and years to come.

    Not a good idea.

    I wrote:

    Then you say we should yield to the threat of terror.

    You wrote:

    Yeilding is often a good idea.

    Okay Neville Squaky, what are you willing to give to achiece peace??

    Parent

    Jim gloats (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by Che's Lounge on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 07:25:33 PM EST
    I have no idea why you think I would want Iraqis to be like me. After all, I am only a citizen living in freedom and safety in the world's greatest country enjoying secure finances and relative luxuries of a palatial retirement compound equipped with many toys and located near friends and family.

    The cost is too great for your comfort.


    It aint bragging if you can do it... (1.00 / 1) (#60)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 09:25:23 PM EST
    As for cost, I paid, dear Che. I paid.

    And envy becomes you.

    Parent

    Time to leave (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by lobo1g on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 10:32:05 PM EST
      How much more does the American government need thrown in its face, to let us know that its time to leave?  Between this radical and the "iraqi government offical" who wrote a 500 page report saying, we messed up their government worse than when suddam had control.  I think its time to pull all of our troops and american contractors out of iraq and let them have at it.  But also with a warning not to step out of line.

    Actually... (1.00 / 1) (#10)
    by jarober on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 11:56:21 AM EST
    Actually, it is exactly the idea behind the surge.  Better to engage the Mahdi army than to have it hide in a shell, ready to emerge later.  What this post shows is a fundamental lack of understanding by TL - the military wants to engage (and destroy) the enemy, not deal with an artificial calm.

    The fundamental understanding missing is yours. (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 01:05:25 PM EST
    The Cheney/Bush cabal wants war, not the "military".
    Iraq is now, and always has been, a quagmire that has turned into a suffocating and inextricable tar pit for American forces, where the inevitable defeat of George Bush's policy combines with the greatest strategic disaster in American history, where the total miscalculation of war and mismanagement of peace has resulted in the collapse of Middle East stability, making America and the world less safe, not more, where wet dreams of imperial domination, fused with delusions of grandeur have helped build a monolithic wall of bad karma that will take decades to tear down.
    ...
    What the Iraq/Bush war shows the world is how a Cabal of Criminality, numbering less than a few hundred individuals, can bamboozle a nation into a war whose ramifications on our future we cannot yet fully comprehend.
    ...
    Delusional, incompetent, dangerous and trapped in bubbles of naked grandeur, expecting fictional flowers and candy to flow from Iraqis expected to greet Americans as liberators, the Cabal of Criminality had no qualms sacrificing thousands of American soldiers, and hundreds of thousands of Iraqi citizens, for greed, power, profit, wealth and ego.


    Parent
    Not to mention (5.00 / 3) (#19)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 01:09:43 PM EST
    That the Mahdi is a movement not a discrete entity. It cannot be killed.

    Parent
    Armies can't kill ideas (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 01:26:01 PM EST
    When is anybody going to understand that?

    Parent
    Give war a chance (1.00 / 1) (#28)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 02:47:18 PM EST
    No, but they can kill those who try and push the ideas.

    Parent
    Really (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 03:33:04 PM EST
    So that all that are left are zombies that we can program to shop at wal-mart and vacation at disneyland?

    Sounds like you are against freedom ppj. Why should the Iraqis want to be like you? Does your Jacksonian concept, via Mead, of assimilation, that you fault mexican immigrants for not doing enough of, now extend to foreign nationals in their native country.

    Parent

    squeaky screws up... again (1.00 / 2) (#46)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 06:04:12 PM EST
    What a mixture of misinformed and uninformed statements. But, since I am coming to understand the problem is lack of capacity rather than the machine itself...

    No one makes anyone shop anywhere, or vacation anywhere. That people choose to do so and that you call them programmed speaks to your lack of analytical abilities.

    I have no idea why you think I would want Iraqis to be like me. After all, I am only a citizen living in freedom and safety in the world's greatest country enjoying secure finances and relative luxuries of a palatial retirement compound equipped with many toys and located near friends and family.

    As part of that I have the ability to be amused by the uninformed chattering of someone who calls themselves,  "Squeaky."

    You're continuing inability to understand the concepts of the culture of "Jackson" merely means that you have been ill-educated. That is correctable and I advise you to do so, although I doubt you will.  

    As an example of your confusion, I refer to your words re assimilation. The fault is not that of the immigrants, but of the US for letting so many in that they cannot.

    Let me know when you need another lesson.

    Parent

    Don't confuse'em (1.00 / 1) (#29)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 02:50:54 PM EST
    They never understood what the "surge" was all about. No need to try and educate them now.

    Unfortunately I doubt that al-Sadr will actually come out and fight. He knows that all he has to do is wait for the Demos to make us leave.

    Parent

    It's not a surge ... (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Sailor on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 03:13:36 PM EST
    ... it's a never ending escalation.

    Civilian deaths are way up, American deaths are steady, not even the green zone is secure and it's a freakin' civil war!

    Parent

    A Movement? (1.00 / 1) (#40)
    by jarober on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 05:30:16 PM EST
    Squeaky:

    "That the Mahdi is a movement not a discrete entity. It cannot be killed."

    You mean like, say, the Klan couldn't be stopped?  Or the Nazis?  Or the Confederacy?  Or the Japanese Imperial Government?

    "Movements" get stopped all the time; it's all about will.

    No (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 06:05:38 PM EST
    al-Sadr represents a much larger group that is wholly Iraqi nationalist. He appeals to both Sunni and Shi'a, largely poor. My guestimate is that his following is 30-40% of Iraq, with many more sympathetic to his message.

    Parent
    The revision of reality here??? (none / 0) (#55)
    by walt on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 08:44:38 PM EST
    The Ku Klux Klan still functions & effectively destroys the lives of jews, catholics & African Americans with some degree of regularity.  Welcome to the Ku Klux Klan! Bringing a Message of Hope and Deliverance to White Christian America!

    The genuine Hitler oriented Nazis are pathetic, now.  They can organize a march or a protest every so often.  Who we are  Racial Greetings White Brothers and Sisters! The American Nazi Party is a Political-Educational Association  However, many observors & commenters on the left view other groups as "fellow travelers" with the oldtime Nazis.  I don't wish to start a flame war about the behaviors of some extremely crazy fundagelical groups, but most readers here are familiar with the "usual suspects."  Wikipedia has some observations on the worldwide nature of the modern storm troopers.  

    Neo-Nazi activity appears to be a global phenomenon, with organized representation in almost every western country, as well as international networks. Despite this, modern Nazi groups are extremely marginalized by the stigma inherent in their politics. Individuals who have attempted to revive Nazism include Colin Jordan, George Lincoln Rockwell, Savitri Devi, Francis Parker Yockey, William Pierce, Eddy Morrison and David Myatt.

    The Confederacy? no comment on this.

    Imperial Japan was a nation-state with a military structure that could be defeated & a territory that could be occupied.  It's not clear why you would think this resembles a "movement."

    Parent

    I am waiting (none / 0) (#61)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 09:27:12 PM EST
    Then tell us your solution to stopping a "movement" that has vowed to take over the world in the name of  Allah...

    Parent
    It's very simple. (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by walt on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 04:30:28 AM EST
    Capture or kill Osama bin Laden----& several hundred of his immediate henchmen.

    You may have heard about soldiers from the 10th Mountain Division isolating bin Laden & a huge mob of his al Qaeda thugs in the Tora Bora.

    Well, it's true.  It happened.  USA troops had bin Laden.  And they were ordered to stand down from CentCom.

    To stop the Wahabbi extremists, we only need to kill or capture a few hundred people.

    None of them are or ever were in Iraq.

    No entity in Iraq had, has, or ever will have the capability to harm anyone in the continental United States.

    Parent

    Re: USA troops had bin Laden. (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by Edger on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 06:42:59 AM EST
    And they were ordered to stand down from CentCom.
    Video here. (1 hr 24 min)

    Parent
    Thanks for the video. (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by walt on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 07:01:45 PM EST
    I blew off a couple of hours on that one.

    Parent
    Worth it though? (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by Edger on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 07:10:37 PM EST
    Yes, in 2 ways. (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by walt on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 01:53:10 AM EST
    First, it pulled together "stuff" that I had read & knew & internalized for my thought process.

    I've seen that timeline on various conspiracy theory websites; but did not know the source(s).

    Second, it demonstrates why the wingnutz, GOoPerz, rethuglicans, fundagelicals & Bu$hBots cannot ever understand the dynamic-----it's like a flow chart.

    Parent

    An example (1.00 / 2) (#66)
    by jarober on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 11:26:14 PM EST
    The north got tired of trying to reform the south in 1877, and left.  Southern blacks paid the price, and the entire country eventually had to deal with the problem between 1955 (or so) and the mid 70's - at a much higher cost than would have been spent had we "stayed the course" in 1877.

    Like then, we can leave now.  Like then, we can then have a much huger mess to deal with later.  It all depends on how responsible you want to be.  What I notice is that it's the Democrats in both cases that want to bail because the work is too hard.

    How about a fact check???? (none / 0) (#76)
    by walt on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 07:14:37 PM EST
    U.S. Grant, was a rethuglican president, 1869-77
    R.B. Hayes, was a rethuglican president, 1877-81.
    Wikipedia
    Key Ohio Republicans like James A. Garfield and the Democrats, however, agreed at a Washington hotel on the Wormley House Agreement. Southern Democrats were given assurances, in the Compromise of 1877, that if Hayes became president, he would pull federal troops out of the South and end Reconstruction. An agreement was made between them and the Republicans: if Hayes's cabinet consisted of at least one Southerner and he withdrew all Union troops from the South, then he would become President.



    Parent
    Perhaps when al-Sadh writes his tell-all book (none / 0) (#7)
    by oculus on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 11:50:24 AM EST
    we'll learn why he waited so long to make this pronouncement.  

    Not New (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 12:23:36 PM EST
    He has made that pronouncement before. Lately he called for the Mahdi to lay low and as a result many shiites were killed, because the US troops were not filling the vacuum left by the Mahdi absence.

    The way I read this pronouncement is that al-Sadr has been somewhat of a uniting force and again is calling for Sunni Shi'a unity. This is more about stopping intercine warfare than killing Americans.

    Sort of if you are going to kill someone kill the foreigners and not your own people.

    He has consistently called for US troops to leave, and is outraged, rightfully so as far as I am concerned, that the US would have any say as to whether they stay or go or surge or purge. It is a sovereign country and it is up to the Iraqi people to call the shots. (no pun intended)

    Parent

    I think this finally has come about (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 01:24:51 PM EST
    because we turned a blind eye to the Shia militias in Baghdad until things got out of control.  We wanted to side with the Shias.  They were the majority and we hoped that by bringing them to power they would owe us and they would pay back in oil and oil influence.  The administration thought that Saudi Arabia would just shut its eyes while the Sunnis in Iraq were slaughtered but damn it they didn't and they let Cheney know just how pissed they were about what was happening in Iraq.  I was surprised that how pissed Saudi Arabia was affected Cheney, I've been flaming pissed at him for years now and he could care less.  So then we got the surge and we started telling the Shia they couldn't exterminate the Sunnis and then we put our troops in Sadr City to let them finally know we really mean it and we aren't just talking the talk.  I wonder if a Fatwa is next?

    Parent
    Generous (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 01:31:17 PM EST
    .... we hoped that by bringing them to power they would owe us.....

    I think that they not only had no idea, but did not care. War is good peace is bad for the neocon agenda. The longer it lasts the better as far as they are concerned.

    Parent

    I agree (none / 0) (#25)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 01:38:30 PM EST
    I think at the end of the day, however many Iraqis are killed they truthfully consider fewer problems standing between them and that oil someday.  In the meantime they make a fortune as "contractors" for the war effort.  You can't lose for winning if you are one of these scumbags.

    Parent
    For get the oil bit (1.00 / 0) (#27)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 02:45:55 PM EST
    If you want to talk oil....

    Likewise with a "war for oil." What would a real "war for oil" look like? Well, US troops would have sped to the oilfields with everything we had. Everything we had. Then, secure convoy routes would have been established to the nearest port - probably Basra - and the US Navy would essentially line the entire gulf with wall-to-wall warships in order to ensure the safe passage of US-flagged tankers into and out of the region.

    There would have been no overland campaign - what for? - and no fight for Baghdad. Fallujah and Mosul and all those other trouble spots would never even see an American boot. Why? No oil there. The US Military would do what it is extraordinarily well-trained to do: take and hold a very limited area, and supply secure convoys to and from this limited area on an ongoing basis. Saddam could have stayed if he wanted: probably would have saved us a lot of trouble, and the whole thing would have become a sort of super no-fly zone over the oil fields, ports and convoy routes, and the devil take the rest of it. Sadr City IED deaths? Please. What the f**k does Sadr City have that we need?

    That's what a war for oil would look like. It's entirely possible that such an operation could have been accomplished and maintained without a single American fatality.

    Link

    Parent

    Once again ... (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Sailor on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 03:09:18 PM EST
    ... quoting blogs do not facts make.

    The reality was we did move first to secure the oil fields.

    McCLELLAN: At the end of Operation Iraqi Freedom there were a number of priorities. It was a priority to make sure that the oil fields were secure

    Try google instead of just making $hit up.

    Parent

    I must quit trying to be subtle.... (1.00 / 0) (#39)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 05:27:43 PM EST
    The quotation describes what we would have done if the purpose of the invasion had been oil focused.

    Since the invasion wasn't about oil, but regime change, we did not do what the quotation describes.

    All actions were coordinated to sieze Baghdad, control of the country and protection of the oil fields as part of the regime change.

    Parent

    Reject. Reject. Reject. (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by walt on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 07:45:26 PM EST
    The invasion of Iraq was not about regime change.

    The invasion was about weapons of mass destruction.

    Then it was about something else like Sept. 11, 2001 & al Qaeda terrorists.

    Then it was about some other things like Zarqawi & dead-enders & old Baathists.

    Then it was about that secret stuff that can't be discussed.

    Then it was about insurgents & terrorists that aren't al Qaeda or Baathists or dead-enders who come to Iraq from somewhere else to do bad things.

    Now it's about making the streets of Baghdad safe for USA senior citizens to stroll & shop & model the latest in personal body armor.

    And it was never about oil.

    Parent

    Unable to understand, eh?? (1.00 / 2) (#56)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 09:07:10 PM EST
    To get rid of the WMD's, it was required to change the regime..

    Is that a tough concept??

    Parent

    C'mon tool. Read the material. (5.00 / 2) (#67)
    by walt on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:15:06 AM EST
    There is this really MAJOR website that "internetz" the information from Bu$hInc.  It's called the White House.  They have "stuff."  It's called information.  It's the "stuff" that people in the White House say & write & offer in various media to the citizens of the United States.

    THE PRESIDENT: I square it because, imagine a world in which you had Saddam Hussein who had the capacity to make a weapon of mass destruction, who was paying suiciders to kill innocent life, who would -- who had relations with Zarqawi. Imagine what the world would be like with him in power. The idea is to try to help change the Middle East.

    Now, look, part of the reason we went into Iraq was -- the main reason we went into Iraq at the time was we thought he had weapons of mass destruction. It turns out he didn't, but he had the capacity to make weapons of mass destruction. But I also talked about the human suffering in Iraq, and I also talked the need to advance a freedom agenda. And so my question -- my answer to your question is, is that, imagine a world in which Saddam Hussein was there, stirring up even more trouble in a part of the world that had so much resentment and so much hatred that people came and killed 3,000 of our citizens.

    You know, I've heard this theory about everything was just fine until we arrived, and kind of "we're going to stir up the hornet's nest" theory. It just doesn't hold water, as far as I'm concerned. The terrorists attacked us and killed 3,000 of our citizens before we started the freedom agenda in the Middle East.

    Q What did Iraq have to do with that?

    THE PRESIDENT: What did Iraq have to do with what?
    Q The attack on the World Trade Center?

    THE PRESIDENT: Nothing, except for it's part of -- and nobody has ever suggested in this administration that Saddam Hussein ordered the attack. Iraq was a -- the lesson of September the 11th is, take threats before they fully materialize, Ken.

    [my bold, italic & underline emphases]

    Now, then, tool: the President of the United States, George W. Bush, from his press briefing room in the White House, stated, categorically, that there are no weapons of mass destruction.  Never.  Existed.  Fool.  The pretendisent said that there are & were no wmds.

    If you are going to be a true believer & drink the kewlade & promote the right wing talking points, tool, you must pay attention to the latest propaganda catapulted by the Bu$hInc administration.  This is especially true when the catapulter is el jefe, your fearless leader, the Chimp in Chief.

    Read the words of your leader: there are no weapons of mass destruction.  None.  Didn't happen.  Never found.  Nix.  Nada.  Ziff.

    Wake up.  Join the crowd, smell the coffee, even the Cheerleader-in-Chief stated on August 21, 2006, that there were no wmds.  False.  Ixnay.

    Have you got it yet?  None!

    And yes, oh marvelous poster of phony links to bogus websites, this link is to the White House website.  Yup.  It's the real pretzeldential deal.

    Parent

    Correct, changing which regime controls the oil (none / 0) (#47)
    by hhex65 on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 06:04:54 PM EST
    and then controlling that regime--I think your counterparts here are being willfully obtuse.

    Parent
    And then tell us (1.00 / 0) (#57)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 09:08:02 PM EST
    Why don't you see who is getting the contracts??

    Parent
    we DID protect oil fields (4.00 / 0) (#30)
    by Dadler on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 03:05:51 PM EST
    We just did so as incompetently as we protected the rest of the place.

    From three years ago:

    Oil Wars
    Transforming the American Military into a Global Oil-Protection Service
    By Michael T. Klare

    In the first U.S. combat operation of the war in Iraq, Navy commandos stormed an offshore oil-loading platform. "Swooping silently out of the Persian Gulf night," an overexcited reporter for the New York Times wrote on March 22, "Navy Seals seized two Iraqi oil terminals in bold raids that ended early this morning, overwhelming lightly-armed Iraqi guards and claiming a bloodless victory in the battle for Iraq's vast oil empire."

    A year and a half later, American soldiers are still struggling to maintain control over these vital petroleum facilities -- and the fighting is no longer bloodless. On April 24, two American sailors and a coastguardsman were killed when a boat they sought to intercept, presumably carrying suicide bombers, exploded near the Khor al-Amaya loading platform. Other Americans have come under fire while protecting some of the many installations in Iraq's "oil empire."

    Indeed, Iraq has developed into a two-front war: the battles for control over Iraq's cities and the constant struggle to protect its far-flung petroleum infrastructure against sabotage and attack. The first contest has been widely reported in the American press; the second has received far less attention. Yet the fate of Iraq's oil infrastructure could prove no less significant than that of its embattled cities. A failure to prevail in this contest would eliminate the economic basis upon which a stable Iraqi government could someday emerge. "In the grand scheme of things," a senior officer told the New York Times, "there may be no other place where our armed forces are deployed that has a greater strategic importance." In recognition of this, significant numbers of U.S. soldiers have been assigned to oil-security functions

    It was essential to protect those fields AND secure the nation for the neo-con fantasies to have a CHANCE of coming true in Iraq.  We f*cked up unforgivably on both counts.  We let the nation and its only chance of economic survival be destroyed.  For what?  Once again, to repeat, we started the WRONG war in the first place, and we weren't even prepared to FIGHT that wrong war in the second.

    This was a war that was hoped, beyond reason or reality, would let us replace bases in Saudi Arabia while securing a major new source of oil.  That we needed to secure the actual COUNTRY to make any of this possible, no matter your opinion as to its right or wrong, doesn't seem to register in your mind.

    I mean, what are you defending in your post: that we didn't protect oil fields adequately or that we should have?  Whether it was a war for oil first and foremost IS NOT THE POINT, my boy.  The point is that even IF we had no intention of making this a war about oil, the survival of Iraq economically DEPENDED on protecting those field.  That's all they had.

    Parent